Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
martin johnston

WOLF SIERRA HWRT 1987 005

Recommended Posts

Well if your sitting there with this "ORIGINAL RS500 CHASSIS 05" how come it is in Germany with the new owner after purchasing it from Charouz himself, with all the paperwork history and documents (which i must add YOU cant produce, even though you claim to have original logbook and fia papers)!!! The car has never been wrecked the last 22 yrs as its been in a Museum for the last 22 yrs... cloning a copy car is not illegal but claiming to have the original car most definitly illegal and the new owner is now looking to sue if the advert stating you have the original chassis number 05 rs 500 is not removed immeadiatly and an apology put in its place...I asume the car chassis and body is that of 01 car which was wrecked some time ago hence all the work your carrying out....

The new owner is sourcing your contact details through lawyers to have this matter sort now not later, so i suggest you change or remove the advert today and apology put in its place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A little harsh as a private message could have resolved this, especially as you are a new member we have no idea as to the credibility of your statement

I assume the car you mention is the Marlboro chassis that was close to Prague in a museum.

It can be very hard to trace the originals of many of these chassis as they got crashed, repaired, reshelled and updated to many different specs over the years and IDs would be changed between cars to get them across customs boundaries with carnets back then as well.

Martin has been a well known owner of multiple original RS500 race cars for many years so he is easy to contact, it would have made better sense to do that before writing your first post.

As an aside please tell us more about the car you mention and lets have some photos  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you will find you have bought the doggy car

strange how when I contacted the nuseum

when they were selling

they stocked answering my E/MAILS

if they had nothing to hide why would they not talk to me?

when roman got involed with the sale

I told to check the chassie number and he said he would and come back to me

which he did NOT,

again BEFORE the new owner purchased the car,

so what you need to ask is why the issue with the chassie number

was not mentioned until after the car was sold

when all involed knew before hand

so I am afrade  it is you what has been depuded

I welcome any inspection on any off my cars

strange how I purchased them though the same dealer as this car,

may be Roman has some questions to answer

so publicy coming  on here slagging me of or frets of court action want wash with me

ARE YOU SAING YOUR NEWLY PURCASED ORIGINAL CAR WHICH

CLEARLY FROM THE SPEC IS AN 88 OR  89 CAR WITH THE NEWER ECU AND DIFFERENT SPEC

HAS AN OLDER 87 CHASSIE NUMBER

may I suggest you ask wolf motorsport as they built these cars,

if you would like to e/mail me direct

martinlabtts@live.co.uk

or call me 07802 336513

as you can see I have nothing to hide,

marin johnston

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

p.s

I have the original 1990 wagen pass

with chassie HWRT 1987 005

SHOWING MY CAR PLAIN WHITE WITH wolf sponcership on he front bumper

I have seen your wagen pass showing malboure colours so cleary much newer

paperwork thn mine

as can you please show me when a wolf rs500 raced in these colours?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if your sitting there with this "ORIGINAL RS500 CHASSIS 05" how come it is in Germany with the new owner after purchasing it from Charouz himself, with all the paperwork history and documents (which i must add YOU cant produce, even though you claim to have original logbook and fia papers)!!! The car has never been wrecked the last 22 yrs as its been in a Museum for the last 22 yrs... cloning a copy car is not illegal but claiming to have the original car most definitly illegal and the new owner is now looking to sue if the advert stating you have the original chassis number 05 rs 500 is not removed immeadiatly and an apology put in its place...I asume the car chassis and body is that of 01 car which was wrecked some time ago hence all the work your carrying out....

The new owner is sourcing your contact details through lawyers to have this matter sort now not later, so i suggest you change or remove the advert today and apology put in its place.

when I cantacted the museum before you bought it they told me that they purchased the car in 2008

did they tel you they have had it for 22 years

bit different fom what they told me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that still doesnt answer the question of you claiming to have the logbook and fia papers and also the original car in any shape of form...so no apology from myself...

if the advert is not change as stating you have the original car with papers then futher action will be taken end of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

now the rest of your emails dropped into my inbox i have passed onto the owner and he will be contacting you, your mention of Roman is interesting as he called me the other day and has seen the car in Germany and told me that without doubt the car in germany owned by Colin Kolles is the real car...who did you buy the car chassis and body from with parts.????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will post pics off the original 1990 logbook

claim nothing I have the paperwork in my hand

its not my problem your car claims to have the same chassie

number as mine,

I bought this car over a year ago

and the chassie number has been on the forum ever  since

ALSO INTERESTING THAT HWRT 1987 005 IS ON THE ORIGINAL chassed

now repaired car that Obermann bought and then stored since 1990

only when we blassed the shell the numbers where visable stamped in the

floor,

the other car I bought and am restoring is chassie  HWRT 1987 001

SO TO BE CLEAR I HAVE TWO CARS WITH 001 AND 005

clearly stamped in the floors,

WHERE IS YOUR CHASSIE NUMBER STAMPED?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this should be sorted out between just the two of you by phone or email as not nice to see all this on here and I am sure Martin and you will get to the bottom of this in the end .......

Cheers Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

now the rest of your emails dropped into my inbox i have passed onto the owner and he will be contacting you, your mention of Roman is interesting as he called me the other day and has seen the car in Germany and told me that without doubt the car in germany owned by Colin Kolles is the real car...who did you buy the car chassis and body from with parts.????

from Roman

and he offered this car to me first!

that's when I questiond he chassie number

strand that he did not mention any of this to the new owner!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this should be sorted out between just the two of you by phone or email as not nice to see all this on here and I am sure Martin and you will get to the bottom of this in the end .......

Cheers Jim

agreed Jim

but first I saw of this post was me being slgged of on here,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes Martin you are right !!! but now you have put all your personal information on here you should be contacted privately.... As Paul S had already put a personal message to you this morning would be much more appropriate.....

Cheers Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This issue is as old as the hills with regards many many race cars.

Old shells and parts get discarded for new ones over time and the original ID lives on in a newer version of the car, then as they get more valuable the old parts get rebuilt and claim back the original ID

Apparently there are more AC Cobras with original chassis numbers out there that ever left the manufacturer, an owner told me one particular ID is associated with 4 separate complete cars around the world, all claiming to be the original. Same story with D type jags.

Hope this all gets resolved privately

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As to be expected with race cars.... But seeing how much Martin has put effort

Into finding these rare race cars and detail history you are barking up the wrong tree mark!

A simple email or call would of been the way to take and slander is no joke and Martin has your threats in black and

White silly boy!

Back to the car no updates martin?

Really looking forward to seeing it finished.

Kieran

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just got back from Germany and a trip to Wolf Motorsport

and met the builder of my wolf cars

great workshop and very nice showroom

got some good info on my 005 car

which as I already knew started of as a Merker Ti

they have now confirmed that it was  ETCC 1986 car that

driven by some of the best drivers

then converted to group A sierra rs500 spec by them in there workshop in 1988 

spare car until sold in late 1989 to Obermann

who I purchased it off last year,

great to get some positive help with the cars history

hopefully have it finished soon, 

Spa 24 Hours 24 Heures de Francorchamps - Lotto Trophy 3.8.1986

12 12 - Ford Sierra XR4Ti - I.R.S. Euromotor Ford Sierra XR4Ti # - Ford L4 2320 cc Turbo Div.3

I.R.S. Euromotor Closed bodywork

Front-engined

Driven by: /Romain Feitler (L)/Harald Grohs (D)/Joachim Winkelhock (D) Result: did not finish (Engine)

Grid: 8th (2:41.040)

Sponsors: R.BILLEN/ORIGINAL ARDENNER SCHINKEN Colours: white/blue

Tyres: Pirelli

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it started off

built by them and raced in 1986

in the ETCC as Bellin sponcerd and as car NO12

it was not the main wurth car they used but was rebuilt in 1988 as a spare group A

car, they kept it until late 1989 and sold it with wurth sponceship front and back

so don't know how they used it in 88/89

but I do now know it was there main car in 86   

which all that matters

1 confirmed they built it and ran it all season as there main car for 86 with top drivers

2 confirmed they convered it in 88 to full group A

3 sold it in lat 89

don't think I could have hoped for more

martin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Martin

Im a bit confused

Why is your car stamped as chassie number 5 built 1987  if it was built in late 85 early 86 ???

Plus , Has anyone from  Wolf actually seen your cars to verify they are what you say they are or are you just telling us the history of the chassie numbers ? as this is what is in question , What car IS the real car , not the history of a chassie number

I could go find an old rusty shell and stamp a Graham goode chassie number into it , then ring graham and ask him about it history , that doesnt mean that the car i have is the real car , it just means i know the history of that chassie number that i have stamped into my rusty shell

I would ask Wolf to look at your cars if i were you as this is the only possible way you can prove anything without any doubts

Just my opinion BTW

Ps, Im not saying who is right or wrong as i only have seen pictures of both cars so can only have my opinion based on that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well i am not confused

they built my car and ran it as car no12 in 1986

stamped all the cars they had in 1987 when they changed the company name

dont need Wolf to look at my cars as i did show them lots of pictures

including close ups of the chassie numbers

you could find a rusty shell and stamp anything you like in it,

but it would be easy to see it was not there original car,

why would someone try and copy a car when its going to cost you 70k plus to build your copy

if you want original parts,

the original shell with the chassie number stamped in to it is the real car,

give me a car with an original ali matter wolf roll cage that has been stored since 1991 and i beleive its the original shell, 

and i would consider myself in the know about rs500 race cars,

back in my box

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Buy im not saying your car isnt a real Wolf shell

whats in question is what car it is

I can stamp a Texaco number into any Eggmo shell but it doesnt make it a gen Texaco car does it

As for a copy , there are quite a few superb copies about with all gen parts as this didnt cost anywhere near 70k until 2 years ago

you know more than most that these cars were worth buttons 5 years ago

You always get defensive Martin when all i am saying is that if your 100% that your cars are the corrct cars then i would be showing wolf and getting somthing written down as i have a feeling you will need it

Dont think im against you Martin as i am not against anyone , this is a situation that is quite common when old race cars become high value , there seems to be 2/3 of everything , and being able to prove who has the " real deal " is a must as it effects the value of all of the cars with the same numbers until the real one is proven 

And sadly having a number stamped into a shell proves nothing as anyone can stamp a number into metal

Altho it does help the builder decide what is and isnt the real car , along with other details , like cage / shell prep etc , so if everthing else is 100% and you have the " correct " stamp then you fine

Remember i asked you at SC why you removed the origonal cage from the other shell ?? i thought you were mad as this is exactly why these cars should be left as origonal as possible , as it sure helps in situations like this

Good luck Martin , your in a situation that all historic race cars ownerd have nighmares about

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Buy im not saying your car isnt a real Wolf shell

whats in question is what car it is

I can stamp a Texaco number into any Eggmo shell but it doesnt make it a gen Texaco car does it

As for a copy , there are quite a few superb copies about with all gen parts as this didnt cost anywhere near 70k until 2 years ago

you know more than most that these cars were worth buttons 5 years ago

You always get defensive Martin when all i am saying is that if your 100% that your cars are the corrct cars then i would be showing wolf and getting somthing written down as i have a feeling you will need it

Dont think im against you Martin as i am not against anyone , this is a situation that is quite common when old race cars become high value , there seems to be 2/3 of everything , and being able to prove who has the " real deal " is a must as it effects the value of all of the cars with the same numbers until the real one is proven 

And sadly having a number stamped into a shell proves nothing as anyone can stamp a number into metal

Altho it does help the builder decide what is and isnt the real car , along with other details , like cage / shell prep etc , so if everthing else is 100% and you have the " correct " stamp then you fine

Remember i asked you at SC why you removed the origonal cage from the other shell ?? i thought you were mad as this is exactly why these cars should be left as origonal as possible , as it sure helps in situations like this

Good luck Martin , your in a situation that all historic race cars ownerd have nighmares about

dont know what your problem is,

after meeting the original builder he remembered the car as they converted it in 1988 to group A spec and then

sold it a year later to Obermann

you so it does not surprise me he remembered the car,

as I told you at Silverstone I kept the original alloy cage,

I am not going to restore a race car and have it not able to race again,

MY OLD ANZ CAR HAS THE CAGE CHANGED TO STEEL

THE CAM SHIPPING HAS ITS CAGE CHANGED TO STEEL

THE OTHER WOLF 004 EX BARCLAY CAR HAS CHANGED CAGE TO STEEL

don't think its de-valued any off these cars

got the history of my Eggenberger car over lunch from the original builder

got nothing in writing has not effected the value of that car,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But nobody has ever questioned any of the other cars Martin

Ill say no more as you as usuall get your knickers in a twist when anyone has any sort of opinion

All i am saying is that your cars now have had there origonality questioned and they will always have this stigma against them unless you can prove 100% they are what you say they are

Saying that you have shown a few pictures to somone wouldnt satisfy me if i was looking to buy them from you ( if i didnt know you ) and as there has been another car advertised with the same chassie number on the world wide webb i would say its more important than ever to get 100% proof

Lets just hope for your sake you dont end up with egg on your face  :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

trouble is with any off these cars

how far to you take it,

i would not exspect you to fly over dick johnson to confirm djr2 shell

at some stage you have to trust someone,

if we can not trust the original builders who do we trust?

all other things are looking at the car/shell/parts/history

and make an educated conclution,

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a similar issue with my F3000 reynard. I bought it complete less engine. The reynard chassis plate had been removed. Did not particularly bother me as I got it for a good price.

Upon stripping the car to refurb I found some of the parts etched with chassis #2. That particular chassis ran in the very early races of 1987 and ended up a bit battle scarred, which matched the repairs I found to the carbon tub under the paint.

Further digging around and I then find chassis 2 up for sale in the UK, all nice and fresh, with the later in season mods as well.

More investigation and apparently half way through the season the chassis plate and cosworth dfv engine were removed from my car and installed into a brand new roller from reynard ( 22 chassis in total were built by them) so why transfer the ID you ask, why not keep the chassis number of the new car?

Well this was all pre 1989 when we did not have open borders with Europe. So to transfer cars between countries back then you had to have a custom carnet for each car ( basically a customs passport so you dont have to pay duties) so when teams retired a chassis it was just easier to transfer the chassis tag to a new car and keep the same paperwork as the old one. This happened all the time with all sorts of race cars/F1/D types/AC cobra etc

So which car is the correct one, the original less engine, or the new one with the engine and chassis plate? in a way both are correct.

Sounds like a similar issue here. Martins became tired and surplus to requirements so the ID and maybe engine/parts etc were swapped to a new fresh chassis and continued living on, which I guess is now the Marlboro car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×